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Friday, May 8, 2015

Another Learning Lesson


I was recently at a birthday party for my grandbaby. She is 3 years old now.  Just picture a circle of 3 year olds sitting down playing duck, duck, goose, if you will.  One of the girls started to cry and get emotional when she got to be the goose.  All crying and teary eyed, and big sobs.  Her feelings were hurt.  Did it make sense that her feelings were hurt?  Of course, it did.  To her it made sense her feelings were hurt.  Anyway they stopped playing the game and the little girl got hugs and kisses from her mom.  The emotions went on for some time.  Would you tell this baby to get over it? Would you even dream of telling this sweet little girl that her feelings didn't matter.  She was only three, maybe the game was a little too confusing, who knows.  There are no words, just feelings.  I get it, I uh, .......I do it too.

I know there are a lot of narc supporters.  I can't seem to let it go.  These people claim to have been abused by them, and have decided to overlook the grief into trying to see the narc for what it could have been.  "This could have been a nice person, but given their life circumstances they needed to retreat into a world of narcissism as a way to survive".  Long drawn out paragraphs, we learn to trust them and start overlooking the bullshit.  I recently went through this trust, and the long paragraphs, and at the end, they basically were nonsense.  I wanted to ask, "Why are you stealing stuff?"  Yeah, I wanted to ask that big question when I was lurking over at another board and the narc sympathizer in question was stealing, and I feel it strongly in my heart that as ACON's the very least we can do is respect another's boundaries.  And respect another's hard work.  And the stuff she was stealing was not even narc sympathy stuff.  So go figure, I was confused.  But it didn't matter that I was confused, all that mattered was the tender feelings of narcissists, not me.

The next time I go and comment on someone's board, I think I'll ask them if they are a narc supporter straight out.  But, maybe I won't get an answer straight out.  Usually, they play a little game, "no I would never be a narc supporter,"  But at the the end of it all, they are definitely a narc supporter. This is so confusing.  Its like that duck, duck, goose game.  It sounds straight forward, but to a three year old it can be confusing.  I know how that little girl feels.  I want to go and cry too.

Some are so new to this and are trying to offer this different perspective.  Overriding the knowledge given to them by the survivors who have had their eyes open for quite some time now.  They had time to ponder this.  Me, with less than a year under my belt, I'm still learning so much.  But I now know, that any support for a narc will put you 6 feet under.  It is a miracle to be alive now.

It is a miracle to be alive now.  Gee, I can't get over that.  It was easy to be a target all my life.  Like an ex had told me, "You make yourself the target, don't blame anyone else."  I was on to Lucky Otter's narc support, and have told her in several comments.  She talked me out of it.  I got confused. I needed the support of the longtime ACON's.  I almost bought into her "support".  I am new, but she was even more newer than me, preaching the way is love the narc.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm not trying to bash anyone here.  I've been hurt, sigh, and gaslighted.  I'm only trying to express those emotions freely.  Seriously, that is all I am doing.  And I'll even acknowledge that it probably isn't even that bloggers intention to cause this gaslighting.  She probably has good intentions, but the shit she is spitting out is dangerous nonetheless.  She needs to learn about boundaries, that's for sure.

And I want to say, Lets all be serious and its ok and even good to bash narcissists.  A narc supporter sounds like they are just nice people.  Too nice.  But they are not being nice.  They will throw you under the bus in a hurry, they are liars.  They don't know the meaning of real love, not the way Jesus taught.

This is not just a simple difference of opinion here.  This is evil in very nice clothes.  Look through the nonsense, see that they are lying and even stealing to get what they want.

The way is love, don't get me wrong.  I was chased here with my present husband by my MN mother. He was, shall we say, not easy to get along with and even harder to understand.  I revel in how far we've come.  It was not that long ago that I told him that I expected marriage.  He was only wanting a cohabitating relationship, in which I would meet my own needs in the relationship that he would not be responsible at all.  He would not even accept God.

I was willing to give him an out.  Look, the circumstances that brought me here, well, I was on survival mode.  All he did was save me from a sociopath.  He did that well.  He would have done that for anyone, a stranger even, and that is basically what I was.  I had nothing to blame him for if he wanted to have out.  He was a hero.  But I have other wants and needs that are separate from this and I didn't want to give that up just because I was trying to escape a malignant narc.

But he didn't want an out.  He was willing to make a relationship with me and that was hard for me to understand.  So I stuck around, did some reading, got some knowledge, and that knowledge put me on the steps of recovery.  Boy, was I messed up.

I pulled myself out of wanting approval for every darn thing!  I told him what I wanted straight out. It was marriage, him to accept God, and that I wasn't setting him up, I was willing to let him have an out.  But at this point I wasn't settling, and if he wanted me these were the terms.  (He was basically a victim to MN mother too).  He didn't like it. He told me no, that its ok for me to hope for such things but in no way would he provide it.  I sat down in the livingroom and he went into the bathroom.  Not five minutes had passed and he came back out of the bathroom, saying "ok".  You see, I told him what I wanted and didn't make the demand from him.  I actually took him out of the equation, so he had no reason to feel defensive.  I would have what I wanted and I believed I was high value enough to expect it.  I told him I wanted everything.  A few minutes later it was a joke he came up with laughing, "Now don't ask for anything else."

We don't need to seek approval.  What's with these blogs looking for attention, money, fame. Pronouncing the ACONness, and even exploiting it.  I never got approved on Lucky Otter's blog for her list.  I guess I wasn't famous enough.  She stole stuff from well known ACON's to make herself look good.  She rode on their coat tails, even though she didn't agree with them, just to be popular. I was horribly confused and gaslighted.

I'm seriously not trying to start a war here.  I've been gaslighted and I'm trying to write it out and put it all into perspective.  This is about me and my recovery afterall.  And I don't mind exposing a liar, I don't.

Seeking approval is a drug you will need over and over again, because it is not long lasting.  I go away and come back on my blog over and over.  I'm busy, I have a life to live, this is only a part of that life.  I choose to live according to the principles I chose.  I choose God and I choose myself.  I choose to never seek approval.  If I do seek approval, I look to what other needs I have that are being unmet, either in my marriage or in myself.

In the presence of a narc my ears start buzzing.  Its pure terror is what it is.  I recently got a dose of that during a confrontation in a parking lot.  It wasn't that bad this time.  The terror sure was bad.  But I had a new perspective and that was this person was a waste of human flesh.  No better than a pile of rubble.  I will bash narcissists forever it seems.  For me it is the healing way.

I guess Lucky Otter says that they choose to be a narcissist in childhood and they can't help it anymore.  I guess so, but I leave it up to God.  If God won't connect to them, then how can I?  That's as simple as I want to look at it.

There are a lot of people supporting the narcs.  And this even the way to help them, they need to be held accountable, not hugged.

I don't get support.  I don't get loved for being abused.  The whole world kisses the ass of the abuser.  Ok, I get a little emotional at times.  I simply had it with people who seek out popularity.  I have never been in that mix.  I will never be in that mix.  I will never be chosen as the popular person good enough to be included in the party.  I fail to even understand how.

Back in the beginning of my relationship, my husband told me that I was always expecting to be treated like a princess.  I said, "Yeah, its true."  I guess he was trying to hurt my feelings, so I was supposed to be tough and say no I didn't want to be treated like a princess.  Then start to act accordingly.  It didn't happen.

He was totally free to explore the world for that tough woman who could take care of herself.  He might have felt obligated to me, but I could stand alone if need too.  I have three children that all had homes and I could have started over by myself after mother went no contact with me.  I had places to go.  I didn't need him so much anymore.  Mother was gone.

He didn't take that opportunity, but instead gave me what I wanted out of life.  With him or without him I would have had it.  Sure, I might have been scared but that is not new to me.  I would have made it.

We have talked about this recently.  It was interesting how he felt so scared of, not me being alone, but him being without me.  He was scared of being without me.  It was beyond love, a sort of connection that neither of us have had before.

He told me that I'm good to him.  That I don't look for my own self, but I really understand him.  Its funny, but there are lots of times I'll cry and I'll do it for hours.  "Just I have strong feelings right now, I don't know how to explain it."  In other words, I live in my own body and I don't try to take over his.  I live with boundaries, and I respect his boundaries.  And I totally expect him to respect my boundaries.  I try to talk the truth, no matter if it hurts, even if it takes me days to do so.  Lots of pain associated with that, I can't even tell you.  I'm hurt and he friggin knows when I'm hurt.  There are no games here.  I don't try to hide my feelings, but I use my words.  I don't try to "man" up and hold things in, they are displayed on the open.

Just a word of caution here, if you wait days to tell him, the pain only gets worse.  It gets harder to tell the truth.

I try to be completely authentic.  For me, that includes red nails and dresses, sometimes not always. Sometimes I'm up to my ears cleaning the kitchen.  Sometimes I'm in pajamas for the day. Sometimes I'm reading a book, sometimes I'm sewing, sometimes I'm watching tv, or writing etc, etc, etc.  There is no way to tell what I'm doing at any point in time.  Sometimes I'm happy, sometimes I'm sad, sometimes I'm angry, or hurt or scared.  I am no longer as one dimensional scared as I always was.

He says he's happy to come home to me.  He's not scared that he'll come home to me bitchin.  If I feel like bitchin then I try to look to my authentic feeling instead and feel that instead of bitchin.  I feel that I'll bitch less when I do that.  I know this might not be a Christian way for me to talk, but I'm stuck, and if God shows me another way, I'll do that instead.

I was the daughter of an engulfing sociopath.  I struggle to find true feelings daily.  Right now I have to pull myself out of it daily.  It is not an easy way to be.  I would much rather not even look after my needs, not because it is easy, but because it is what I'm used to.  I might say that I don't feel like washing my face and combing my hair, but the actual authentic feeling is that I'm simply not used to it.  But on the outside that looks like I'm lazy, so in order not to "look" lazy I do it for approval.  That is not the way to be at all.  Do I want to comb my hair because it is good for me and will make me feel better about myself in the long run?   This is a question I have to ask myself daily.

No I will never be popular.  I can't even relate to it.  For me, looking for approval is akin to not saying what I want to my guy because I'm afraid he will shoot me down.  If he shoots me down then that means I'm garbage to begin with.  C'mon, you know that is not true.  But it is a constant battle.

Sometimes it feels like I say things to him that he is going to hate me for.  "I feel horrible, and upset, that I need this or that, and I don't have it."  Call it what you will, manipulation I suppose.  Call the woman who wants something manipulative?  If I have this or that I might be more happier and more joyful than ever before, and bring more joy into his life as a result.  I have told him that there are things he says to me that I don't like.  Or rather that they hurt me and makes me feel upset.  I never "suck it up".  Ok, I know I'm not explaining this well, lol.

I never try to fake nice.  I did once and it had horrible consequences for us.  He was out helping his ex with something, and I stayed here and "sucked it up".  Then I would have this bitchy attitude when he came home.  Nowadays, he would not even try to help his ex.  But back then I had this horrible MN friend who told me I had to be nice to the ex.  But the ex wanted him back.  So I had to play this game where I had to pretend that it didn't matter to me.  But it did.  I didn't even like his ex.  Not because she was his ex, but because she was a horrible person.

She told him that he never shaves on his days off.  She told him over and over to shave and he wouldn't.  They had serious fights about it.  But, he shaves now and all it took was authenticity on my part.  So he doesn't like to shave on his days off?  I can completely understand that.  Afterall, he wants to take it easy on those days.  Why not?  Is it any of my business that he is trying to relax?

But I remember one day that he did shave and I commented on how happy that made me.  I much preferred it.  From then on he began shaving regularly.  Somedays he doesn't but that's ok, I understand.  Those are the days he's very relaxed.

I want to absolutely talk about my progress in life thus far.  Much of it had to do with my relationship, and how much authenticity has helped me, although I am still not used to it.  I also wanted to say that if you are not being authentic, then you are not living, you are just existing.  If you are seeking approval at every turn then you are just existing to feed a drug.  If you are hugging narcs then that has got to be the biggest bullshit the world has ever seen.

Look, I could never hold down a job.  I couldn't provide for myself.  I couldn't be in a relationship that wasn't abusive.  I was set up to die.  Did I do this to myself?  No friggin way.  So I will never feel sorry for a narc.  

11 comments:

  1. Thank you for this post.

    Lately it seems most of the world is telling me I am wrong to feel or believe the way I do. Everyone supports and defends the narcs. Us ACONs I guess are getting used to be told always that our feelings are wrong. The world rallies for the narcs. Maybe this advanced stockholm syndrome--I certainly saw in Aunt Scapegoat, where even some of the abused rally for the abusers, they hate the victims and support the narcissists. Aunt Scapegoat chose my mother too. They identify and have empathy for abusers.

    I was wary early on. I felt "love bombed" and well I think I am learning my lesson, not to stick around and "be nice" and hope the person is real, but to just get out the first time I have that niggling feeling. The long paragraphs confused me too where it seemed consistency folded and contradictions even existed within the same article. Why reprint articles you don't agree with or where you have narc defender stuff? If someone defends narcs, doesn't this mean they identify with them in some way more then their victims? Aspies are cautious sorts too, and I did not see that there. I know a lot of Aspies too from being in the Aspergers community well before I found the ACON one.
    continuing...

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    1. When people give double messages like yes I believe in no contact but then says things like narcissists can be healed, that is a time for concern. I felt confused a lot too. Support for a narc just means more abuse. Loving narcs or hugging the vampires, just means you get bit. I should know. I tried to love those who would not love and were incapable of it. I am glad us ACONs have each other. We need each other in a world that will redouble and triple our abuse. It is interesting I wrote an article talking about how I was called evil and then this blogger goes and does the same thing to me. I don't agree with her narc support, and just want a peaceful leaving. We don't agree, our world view is too different time to move on.

      I'm hurt too, but from years on line and being a person who writes maybe too honestly, I've already had the detractors. I know how the internet games can be played. I sometimes wonder if I was set up from the start. As I have written many do not want honest discussion of narcissism in this society because we are dealing with spiritual matters of good vs. evil. this world is one that will defend the evil. BPD people which she admits having usually lack boundaries. She could be good intentioned I agree and really believe in what she is writing in about "loving the narcs" but I could not remain a supporter in my disagreement. I agree this is dangerous advice for many people and even especially for women in abusive relationships. "Love the narc", instead of "Protect yourself" is not a message I want to be associated with.

      I have been thrown under the bus IRL multiple times by narc supporters, that is what narc support leads to. Those who defend evil have chosen the side they have aligned with. They may call some religious fanatics, etc, to divert the truth about enabling evil.

      I am glad to hear you drew boundaries with your present husband and set terms. I think that is a sign of recovery to make clear the boundaries and what you want. Seeking approval for an ACON is a path for misery. People pleasing and narc pleasing that just opened us up for more abuse. Real relationships are based in showing true emotions and being authentic.

      I agree about the blogs, being used for attention, and more. Growing a blog off coat-tails-, I was wary months ago but didn't know what to do. When she began the narc defense and interviewing and posting info from the big name narc I don't trust, I was already wary. I warned her and cared about what happened to her, but there "being too nice" is one thing I need to work on. I should have just cut off the link and walked without a word. I don't want to seek approval and need to keep my own boundaries better and listen to the small voice inside that is warning me. Sometimes it seems so many wolves are gathering around me, I get distracted. Which one should I deal with today? I'll let God approve me. It's obvious I'm hated by some people, but I can't let it bother me or silence my message. The narcs and their enablers want us to shut up.

      continuing...

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    2. You are right the whole world kisses the ass of the abusers. This is why when people come out and make a stand, they turn their back on them or work on them to get them to be quiet. They call them haters, and "how dare you be angry", and yell things like "why haven't you recovered" for us having feelings. Isn't it very narc like all the attacks on even having feelings?

      I'm an Aspie, the popular people are foreign to me too. I will never be in that mix either. I don't want to do what it seems popular people have to do to be popular. Conforming, and silencing themselves?

      I think it is great you can be authentic with your husband. I can be with mine. I am happier around people I don't have to censor every opinion or feeling for. I am realizing they are a waste of my time. Why must I follow their script? My boundary is I have the right to feel what I feel.

      Being the daughter of an ignoring sociopath in my case, I was condemned over and over for being me. I was told I was wrong to have any feelings and even my feelings were meant for her to use. Everyone told me to forgive her, and I had to walk on the eggshells for HER feelings but no one cared about mine. I am learning self care, and doing WHAT makes me feel good, not following anyone else's script. I have no interests in hugging narcs, or getting cold or cruel people to "like me". I already banged my head on that wall too long. I will never feel sorry for the narcs ever. It's not in me either.

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    3. Thanks Peeps I'm glad you understood all that, I felt like I was all over the place. The abusers are to be blamed for everything, they don't need any hugging, in fact, we need to acknowledge this. They might be at the emotional level of a three year old, but there is no three year old in there. I don't know how she got that screwed up. There is no three year old in there crying for love. Oh gee.

      There is no need for us to feel bad for narcs, they feel sorry enough for themselves. We are the ones who need the love from ourselves. If I start to feel sorry for narcs, I can't protect myself pure and simple.

      As far as taking other people's articles, from someone that I can trust, then writing nonsense on top of it was the beginning of the gaslighting for me. I was confused, I was supposed to believe because she agrees with someone that I trust. Someone that I've never seen narc hugging from, but she narc hugs but its ok. I don't know how to explain how I just couldn't take it. This is the same kind of gaslighting I've seen all my life, it causes me to second guess myself, and believe me when I second guess myself, I have to basically lock myself in the house, I can't function, can barely talk. The traffic started confusing me the other day, and I was wondering why I was starting to second guess myself again. Its dangerous to gaslight someone. People are calling her a truly heartfelt person. Huh? Where are they getting that. I have to stay out of her space. But I feel that all ACON Blogs should be safe, But they can actually be dangerous.

      We need to believe that narcs are not for hugging. And yes, we are basically tossed under the bus when ACON's are hugging narcs. Its like the abuse doesn't matter. They don't say that, but that is there actions.

      I didn't really know about that big name narc. He posted there, and I was curious, and it wasn't like me to not be curious, so I stayed to see what was going on. She brought him in, pushed him away, brought him in, pushed him away etc, it was truly confusing, and he never spoke a simple language, always fancy high highfalutin words, and grammar, and I get the feeling he was never specific, just confusing.

      So yeah, I will choose to keep things simple from now on, and no one should be love bombing us, that is just crazy. I know she is BPD and I don't think she is medicated, it costs alot and I feel for her for that, but I must think of myself.

      Yep, just feel like you feel, just like the little girl did in my opening. I don't know if she felt hurt over being called a goose, or that she had to run to catch the other girl, or if she was just confused. Just hurt, and upset and she felt horrible. That's it.

      But I have forever decided to put down the drink of approval. I can't live that way, and if I try, I'm afraid it won't happen anyway, so down it goes. But I was afraid that I was putting down Lisette in my posting, which I wasn't. For being popular. She comes across as sincere and natural, and everyone is attracted to that, not by love bombing and doing things to get attention.

      So I feel better now, I am no longer trying to understand something that I just can't understand. I wish I listened to my first instincts too. And authenticity does work wonders, its easy, well sort of easy, its easy in that it is easy to understand, but a little hard to do. I can never feel sorry for an abuser, its either us or them. That is just the way it is, and it doesn't make things easier to hug the narcs, it doesn't aid in recovery, it just confuses. And there is no three year old in a narc that needs a hug.

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    4. I agree Joan, there is no three year old crying for love in there. If there was then mal. narcs would respond to love and have the ability to heal. I agree we need to look out for ourselves. the narcissist's don't feel sorry about anyone. .

      One sign of gaslighting is confusion. She was started to confuse me too.

      Yes online we all have to be careful. I've been through Internet wars before, because I have written controversial things even in the fat world. Marilyn Wann and I even went at it once on her message board. I am a little upset I didn't see the "set up" in the mix, but I knew even early I was being "love-bombed". Part of me is too easily wanting to see the good in people especially a would be fellow Aspie.

      Many ACONs get thrown under the bus, as I pointed out, many of us were punished, and rejected by others for not taking our abuse with a smile on our face and love and submission to our abusers. Why should anyone be surprised that the ACON community will be surprised by calls for narc sympathy?

      People are basically telling ACONs, that they have no right to their feelings, and isn't that what narcissists did to us, telling us we have no right to our feelings? I'm two years in and just lost the whole family since they chose my mother, and I'm supposed to be smiling and whistling happily about it all?

      Yes that famous narc has weird speech patterns, he uses 50 cent words when 5 cent ones will do. Most bamboozlers and those who want to deceive will do that.

      Yes I worry for BPDs and feel for them but I have enough of my own problems where I have to take care of myself to stay alive from physical issues. I don't know the treatment rate of BPD or even much about it but have just a basic familiarity. Push and Pull, Hate and Idealization seem to go with the disorder.

      There are those who are popular for good reasons.

      I don't want to worry about approval either. I was hated by the size acceptance world at my start but I do know I got some to listen over the years. There are things I can't understand either. Sometimes when someone confuses us too its best to just back away. The whole feel sorry for narcs is a path of confusion because narcs don't feel sorry for anyone.

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    5. All my life it felt like everyone else was important, not me. I want a time machine to go back and kick butt.

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    6. Me too Joan. I think of how everyone else was important and I was invisible. Even part of me wonders did I help them exiting the stage? But I could not take it anymore. I need a time machine too.

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  2. For me, a quick way to separate the wheat from the chafe is if their parents were narcs and they literally could not get away from their abusers or they dated one and could get away but didn't, There are grey areas here. My mother was a narc but groomed me to be susceptible to relationships with narcs, so I feel doubly doomed. My opinion of Luck otter is one of her being so disordered she should take some time out before she even thinks of extending a hand of guidance. Amateurs can make a worse hash from the lives of others than any Narc. Like in AA they have a guideline for thinking about being someones sponsor. But there is nothing to guide the people on blogs but their inflated sense of self worth. Stringing a few words together in a coherent way does not a trusted councilor make.

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    1. Thanks Q. I agree. I am her for that 20 something young woman with the black eyes and young kids who didn't know anything about life. That's me. And I'm here for the reality of it, it is so much to bear. It sounds unkind an uncaring, but I don't feel like loving up any narcs, and I feel a great deal of pressure when I'm told to do that, and confused too. And taking Lisette's stuff on top of it and the two doesn't go together, my head was in a tailspin. We have all been in that position before. LO is even newer than me, and while I'm not bashing, I just want to make sure that everyone knows this stuff is dangerous she talks about. Not even for my own kids sake will I be any other way.

      Thanks again Q

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    2. Anyone can start a blog. No one is credentialed here. I know I even have my limitations. Being Aspie I have to work around some of those. I know I found many blogs that gave me guidance, like House of Mirrors was one I found and then Qs. When I found ACON blogs, I realized I was not the only one this happened to. I of course had spiritual guidance in other places and turning to God too to understand what happened to me. As I wrote before, Lucky's message is one I had no choice but to break away from. It wasn't about making it personal. It had to do with what I stood for. I do not stand for enabling evil by coddling it or sympathizing with it. There is spiritual and other abuse going out in our world because people are told to excuse the most wicked. The victims are blamed for their own negative feelings and that part bothers me a lot.

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  3. I thought BPD stood for bi polar disorder. The mental illness. Not borderline, I was just researching it. I'm afraid I don't know much about these personality disorders, I don't trust the sources they come from. So I guess I have to start now anyway. I thought she was bi-polar, and there is nothing wrong with that, just lots of medications and thats a real person, not like the Cluster B's.

    So sorry for the confusion I may have caused in saying that BPD just needed to have medications.

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