I totally get that no contact is a very good rule. I've done it with my own FOO, telling them to get lost even. But the difficulties of life can present another problem and I've been researching like crazy to try to solve the problem. What if you have to be in contact with narcs? But I keep reading that there is no such thing as "have to". But I'll tell you my story here and I'm hoping that by writing it, I will get some idea of how to handle it.
I hope you were with me last summer when I posted over and over again about the nasty SIL of DH's. One is up in my popular posts section called, "Its so screwed up." You can start there and just work backward. There was discord over me being left out over a situation regarding a trip to visit the brother and his wife, or freak, or whatever you want to call it. Well, another email, inviting DH from nasty to come and help build a garage with the brother. Yes, she is the one who showed him her boobs.
We've been down to one vehicle lately and one is in the shop. Our shop btw, for DH is his own mechanic. It saves us money, but takes a very long time. But it was ok. It was all working out, no big deal. Until now. And when he got the email, I became completely authentic with my feelings of being left alone here with no vehicle. Since I was in my feelings, my pitch went rather screechy and he said, "Well, you can come along with me then." I had no other choice but to go. This was terrible and I knew what I was in store for and I was not disappointed in that regard.
The pain shot through me. Just before we went, I was commenting on other blogs, and I'm afraid I was very melancholy. But it was ok, and I didn't want to tell anyone what was going on, for I feared I've beated that horse too many times last summer. Basically, last summer she sent DH an email inviting him to go, with them, on a camping trip. The email could have been implied that I was to go too. I posted the email too many times last summer in my blog. It hurt my feelings, and I was freaked out by it.
But I've learned a lot since last summer. I got into my prayer closet. So I went with him. I went taking all my quilting with me. I had 2 days of straight sewing with me. Fortunately, SIL, had to work all weekend. But in this email it was realized that I was not going on the trip for it was to build a garage it was not a holiday. But I had to go with him.
So we went. The trip is 4 hours away straight up north. It was back to winter clothes for the weekend, which I didn't bring. I did not know it would be that cold in May. But it was terribly cold and I had only one set of clothes to wear that were warm enough. But it was ok, I mean that wasn't the problem.
Its hard to talk about. The words are pummelling in my head and I'm having a hard time getting it out. So I learned a lot from last summer. And in my prayer state I felt that it was no big deal, just sit there and quilt all day. This I didn't mind to do at all. But the SIL was there only a few hours in the evening when the guys came in, I did not think for a second that she would get a dig at me, but she surely did.
And it made me feel like I was the bad guy here. That I'm just a sulking kid who did not get my way. That is what is making this thing so terribly hard. I was completely in my relaxed authentic full self, and I had not felt emotionally needy. I was doing great, God was leading me, I was sure I could do this, no problem. And I did do what I had to do, I stood my ground, I was firm about boundaries and what not? Want to know what happened that is making me feel so completely stupid?
She started telling DH that he could go for a shower. He said, "later". But she kept after him and said she needed him to do it now, for she was wanting to start the laundry. He said, "ok" and he went for his shower. I sat there dumbfounded. I know he was doing some work and probably needed the shower but I was completely ignored. And I was a guest in their home too. So I didn't know if I was to say anything, but I felt like shit. Then she went after the other brother for his shower too, and proceeded to do the laundry. But these guys worked all day, and I felt like I didn't need a shower and I didn't take one. It was ok, maybe I was just imagining being ignored. Afterall, I didn't go on their camping trip last summer, even after it was "implied" that I was invited.
Then the next night she did the same thing. She ushered all the guys for their shower, naming each by names. Both brothers were there along with the brother that lived there. At that point, I said, "Yoo, hoo, I'm here too, don't forget me," This came flying out of my mouth and I can't understand it. She got angry. She said, "Oh, no one is leaving you out, Joan. You want a goddam shower, go take a goddame shower." I said it felt like I was being left out. Then what came out of her mouth next would probably burn the computer up, it was so terrible. Hurled a bunch of insults and screaming. I just sat there. Actually, I wasn't really listening to what she said, it was a freak fit. She seemed to get offended by the yoo hoo part. Or something. No I'm just kidding.
All of a sudden I can remember what mother used to say when someone was throwing a fit. narc or not mother used to say that was just an act they were putting on, or they are just doing that. This is a projection. When mother used to throw fits, this is what was happening it was all a big act.
I knew the SIL was putting on a show for everyone who would listen, as I was not listening to her, really I wasn't, I was just aware there was a freak fest going on. I saw the brothers scramble to leave the room, DH announced that he was going to bed, and I saw another brother, head to the kitchen for a drink to escape the freakshow that lasted for way too long. And she didn't face me while doing it, she started to head outside during it, then went outside and shut the door and I could here here screaming and making accusations outside.
Wow, thanks mother, I think, for that fine bit of knowledge. Mother used to freak out all the time, and this is not my first dance with a narc, and actually this SIL is pretty tame in comparison. I just shrugged my shoulders and went on with my evening of quilting. I felt better actually. After awhile her husband approached me and talked to me for awhile about what I was making. He looked tense, and I was just wanting to get to a good place in my quilting to stop for the night. He talked about the quilting and that was it. Then went and sat back down. The other brother was sitting on the couch too, with a freaked out look on his face. Eyes wide, ready to run. And I was completely ok about the whole matter, but it worried me that the men felt alarmed, but I was fine. DH was sleeping, I think.
Not too long after that, I went to iron a few pieces. These pieces were getting too hard to iron, the pressing was difficult and I found myself procrastinating on them all day, and there were 48. But after the freakshow, as I started to iron, I realized that it was very easy to do. During the day, I had to stop for my shoulders would be aching. But this time I powered through the rest of them. And there was more than half left. Was that seratonin? Was I stressed over the weekend of being ignored like this that the tension got to me? And now this thing relieved the stress?
I started to ask myself if I was enjoying this. If I want to be the good guy here and didn't want to recompense evil for evil, why was I in a happy state of mind? The "yoo hoo," was probably very inappropriate of me, for I knew I could have handled the situation much better. It is a matter of opinion if I was inappropriate. I even prayed about this when I went to bed and I asked for God to help me understand. Suddenly I felt it in my heart that whether it was right or wrong, I did the best I could. I didn't get it right. But it wasn't confrontational, it was kinda in the middle. This is so hard. I was faced with difficult circumstances and I did the best that I could. I did the my best to not be passive aggressive, and it was all I could muster.
But at the end of it all, let's just switch a normal person with SIL. Would a normal person have acted that way? Even about the shower thing, since I was a guest in their home. How would a normal person be in the same situation? Would she have included me too? Since she was naming off names, and that I felt was a bit of a covert tactic, one that was designed to set me off but escape the others notice. And I always felt she was a narc, even way back in the beginning, when we first went to go visit them. Did this time, the mask came off? Was I going to look like the good guy now? In my prayers that night it came into my heart that I am not to count on that.
Ok. So the next night after her job was done, it was our last night stay there. I was in the house doing my sewing, and she stayed outside after work, and I was wondering why she was not coming in. I was alone in her house, and I felt uncomfortable. I saw though the window that she was standing outside waiting for the guys to come in. Wow, ever weird, here she had the perfect opportunity to go at me alone and she did not even take it. Something was going on. I went outside, in the clothes I wore for 3 days and never even a shower even. I walked up to her and said "hi", and she said hi, then she went inside. I was going to follow her inside, and I did not know, but I felt I was stalking her, so I stayed outside till the guys went in. It was weird. We all had dinner leftovers, and I proceeded to walk to the couch beside her with the laptop. I sat down and went into Anna V's site and immediately I went and read the part of "disproportionate responses of narcs". I just happened upon it. So I started to read. This is all an act. It was confirmed for me right there in Anna's articles, for I remember the SIL being fine and talking to everyone, but me, right after the hurling insults. It was like she had taken a good shit, and now she felt better.
I'm from the family that like to "tell you off". It feels good and relieves that pressure. That's what I was told by my FOO anyway. But, and here is the crazy part, is that you don't have any right to tell anyone off. But they do, and somehow they have formed it in their mind that it is ok.
You know, I've been in constant prayer this whole time, and my body is screaming at me that my "yoo hoo" shouldn't have created such a stir. For a normal person, it would have only shaken them out of their thoughtlessness, and they would have realized and felt terrible about leaving me out.
Another thing was confusing me, is that she offered me dinner and coffee a few times when necessary, and didn't leave me out of that. But, listen, narcs do that. The evil cannot exist on its own, it must have to exist with the good. That is the only way it can survive. I know this is the only way we will survive being slaughtered. We must get it out of our heads that all they do is be mean.
So all the guys are ok with what she did. Even DH, and he even told me that "no, she did not need to hold your hand to have a shower." That was apparently one of the insults she hurled at me, that I was not listening to. Such an insulting thing to say to me. Can you imagine? But DH has come a very long way from when I first knew him, but he does not believe in judging people and he gives everyone the benefit of the doubt. But he did manage to take hold of a neighbour that was being greedy with him, after I had told him about it. After I spent 2 years going on about the man. It came as no surprise in the end that the man using him to do the snowplowing was not paying him at all. That one was a rather serious problem in my life, and I wrote about it one time in an article I wrote called, An Evil Narcissist. Well, that guy is gone from our lives. Do I expect him to get rid of his brother the same way to get rid of the SIL? No, I don't. To tell the truth, authentically I just want the problem to go away. I want him to acknowledge the fact that I wasn't complaining for she was not wanting to "hold my hand for a shower." You know, she might not be that covert, but all this goes way over people's heads. Or that my feelings got hurt, its no big deal Joan, get over it. I mean its disgusting. And I feel like I'm the bad guy too, how everything panned out. I am not making this up, I am not the type of person that goes around stirring up trouble, I have very good associations with people.
So I prayed to God about the camping trip in a few months, and I wonder what shit she will stir up. But God only told me, "strength he will give me in season." And this is hard to accept when something bad is about to happen. I'm sure of it.
Overall, I think I handled everything very well. My "yoo hoo" might not have gone over very well with the guys, and DH is rationalizing everything to a T. It makes sense that she got "pissed off", but I'm sure that is not the way he would have been if he was her. But he has completely put that out of his mind. So this makes everything very hard, but I strengthened my boundaries in the whole mess, I did stick up for myself but everyone seems to want to take away my right to do that. It looks like she is the one with all the rights, and I was not letting her have me for supply.
My connection to narcs in my world has been very good as of late. But she is one that was there in the beginning, just at the beginning of my awakening, so she got a little snack and she is trying for more. But she is not going to get anymore, I am making darn sure of it. I was not affected at all the by freak fit. I was just wondering why it startled everyone else. But then I realized that they don't know, and they think she is pissed off for real.
But I felt really good till I learned that DH was making her behaviour ok with him. Then I started to feel all dead again. I looked like the bad guy. On top of that, I feel like I've lost my emotional resources and now am now fighting to get them back. I feel that my personality sucks and that was evident in the way the other guys treated me. I'm rather dramatic at times, but not all the time, this is just one of my parts, and this is starting to bother me. But as I have learning that parts of you that you are unwilling to express or be, these are the parts that must be expressed, for you can't be whole otherwise. I am ashamed of my personality at times, but I mustn't be, for this takes away my value as a person, and I mustn't ever try to suppress or hide any my parts. But its hard, you know, given such an environment I was in. So what happened is that she was unable to tear me down, so she got her minions to do it for her. This sucks. So this is something I have to build up again. It is definitely a challenge, this being enough. But it is true, whether I feel like it or not, I am enough.
And DH and I haven't even fought in many months. I talk to him openly, I don't hold anything in, and he has gotten used to my expressive self. But not anymore. We fought about it now. I was worried that we never fought for a long time, so now we are, so its ok really, got to be my authentic self. I'm not going to try to hide my feelings about this, it will just make it worse. I just want him to acknowledge my feelings here, and he isn't. I know I wasn't perfect, I don't need to apologize for what I did, so, I guess some people just want to go with the flow.
Her reacting that way to a simple request to shower, was beyond the pale, and I agree it was an act. Oh next time if you do ever go there again, just shower when you want to. I wouldn't ask permission. Better if she doesn't know you even did it. I would take a shower in the morning hopefully when she is doing something else or out. Make yourself a sandwich, your husband is working for free for his brother, tit for tat. Don't wait to ask permission next time.
ReplyDeleteOthers always seem to mold themselves to the narc, I do not know why this happens. :( They seem to make them endless allowances just by them being in the room. That would annoy me big time.
Thanks Peep. It does annoy me big time. Next time, I will stay under the radar and get things done better. This is all learning for me. No kidding, here we were here for them and I got treated like that. That big act scared the guys, who were here to help too. That was done on purpose, she showed no regards to anyone.
DeleteBut I will do what I have to do. Its hard when I'm stuck in the middle and my emotions are going crazy, but I know what's going on at the same time. Its frustrating.
It would annoy me. I am a stickler for loyalty and know that would be an issue for me too especially in a significant other relationship. Don't choose some narcissist over me! It is better to stay under the radar, I agree. Don't ask her permission. Act like you own the place which may be against your nature, but with narcissists that's how you have to act, that impervious nature. Go to the fridge and make yourself a sandwich without asking. LOL The kind person's natural desire to make lee way and room and "be nice" is used and abused by narcissists. I hope you can do okay next time. His wife is a creep even trying to tell men and women when to take showers. The narcissists specialize in the stupidest of nits don't they. A normal person wouldn't want to keep track of stuff like that would they?
DeleteForget SIL, she is nobody to you and is undeserving of space in your head. DH is your partner in life, he is somebody to you, who is worth the effort of building a healthy relationship.
ReplyDeleteFor scripture based answers go toe Rev Renee Pittelli's website: http://www.luke173ministries.org/
Thanks MF. I did talk to him this morning and said that its ok, and things are fine again. I often go to Rev Renee site, lots of good things there along with Anna V. How these women are so good at this is beyond me. But I will put SIL out of my mind, and when confronted with her again I will get that DH does not understand. Easier said than done I know, but I'll get better at that too.
ReplyDeleteI will be brutally honest! You misunderstood me Joan. IMO your DH and his brothers are enabling your SIL. Someone, preferably your own husband, should have stepped in and told SIL she was outta line. Ideally, you both should have gotten in the car and left. As it was, even you were civil with her so, her bullying tactics were accepted with absolutely no consequences.
DeleteEarlier in my marriage, I put my parents ahead of my husband even when my NF spewed his of rages all over my husband. I constantly accepted/excused NF's behaviour and we ended up in marriage counseling. When I (stupidly) told my mother we were working through some things she offered to fund the divorce. By then we already had a child! BTW Counselor came after ME, pointing our how wrong my priorities were!
Took some time and work but in the end my DH and I ALWAYS has each others' backs. In the years, before I finally went NC, I protected my husband from NF's abuse and only asked him to accompany me to family funerals and such. In return, he supported me emotionally when they crapped on me and he encouraged me to limit contact.
If you were to prioritize the importance of people in your life, would SIL even make YOUR list? If DH did the same, where would SIL be on his list? Would it even occur to him, to tell his brother that if he wants help in the future you MUST be treated with respect?
My friend Rev Renee would very likely call you an enabler too! That's exactly what she told me when I broke NC and went back for more abuse, which, by the way escalated beyond anything I endured before. Renee tried to stop me, by saying I was basically giving them the go-ahead to use me as a punching bag. If you go near her again, you can pretty much count on SIL escalating after getting a free ride on this latest episode.
I'll be honest here, don't take this wrong JOan, but if my husband had ever taken a side of one of my relatives above me or my mother god forbid, all hell would have broken loose, many not in front of the narcs but later. I was fortunate and did not get this. You need to tell him to DEFEND YOU.
DeleteMy marriage was affected too by the narcs. We always were a close couple but became closer when I went NC. Why? I was guilty of allowing them to disrespect my husband. Oh they never did it to our faces, one thing about my husband when they dared a few times to disrespect either of us in front of our faces, we got up and walked out. They never once dared to disrespect me in front of him! Getting with my husband at age 25 ended all OVERT and verbal abuse for ME and he never accepted any. She only abused me when he was not around to the point we had a rule for over 10 years I never was to be left in a room alone with her and she put me down big time the one or two slips there were.
DeleteHowever I was guilty because they bad talked my husband to me. I would defend him but why did I put up with it without severing contact even then? My mother said bad things about him when he got laid off from jobs etc. I needed to walk for good even for his sake, as they disrespected him and same for this frenemy I had too, who ripped him down. Narcs rip down anyone who is not a career "success" even someone who has worked hard and had a book published like my husband.
We got much much closer after getting these narcs out of our lives. I won't put up with anyone talking bad about my husband. They were trying to drive a wedge and I was upset too angry about the economic problems and it did put major pressure on us. I'm sick of these creeps always criticizing, they suck. I do think the SIL is trying to drive a wedge between the two of you on purpose, not sure of the agenda but it's there. They don't want anyone happy that's for sure.
Thanks MF, I probably an enabler due to the fact that I don't know what else to do. I know we should have left, but he thinks its a-ok, not that he overtly blamed me for the whole mess, but it was there. Enabling, and there is nothing I can do to stop people from enabling. For the time being, I will go undercover and try to see what I can learn, and maybe I'll be praying more, getting to solve the problem. I'm stuck. He doesn't see crazy. I see crazy, and I can make crazy spin on its axis, make it do a triple axle, make it spit pea soup, but unfortunately, this only makes me the bad guy.
DeleteThanks Peeps. I called him abusive. I pissed her off. Yeah, right. She wasn't pissed off. Well, actually, they are always pissed off. They live that way. We know this, and I think dumb turds just try to live by not pissing them off. And we know this is control.
DeleteYou summed this up well. This is how they control people, they don't want to piss them off at all costs. Many of us have paid big time for others cowardice. I told my husband one reason my mother turned into such a monster is because no one ever called her out on her crap. If the Aunt that Loved Me or Aunt Scapegoat had ever said to her face, you treat two of your kids especially one like crap, and you lie all the time maybe things wouldn't have gotten as bad as they did. All the defenses said in dark rooms behind her back really meant nothing as no one stood up for me. One even died doing her bidding while supposedly having sympathy for me, but what did that sympathy mean as everything was handed to the narc including her own personal power? You are right that sums narcs up ALWAYS PISSED OFF. And some are so spoiled and have nothing to be angry about but they are.
DeleteFrom Pastor Renee's site:
ReplyDeleteA hot-tempered man must pay the penalty; if you rescue him, you will have to do it again..Pr.19:19
This means that the men saw this behaviour from her before. This is not the first time. Guaranteed.
If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you..Pr. 25:21-22
DeleteMaybe this is why she was trying to avoid me after the incident. I was actually kind and was saying "hi" and stuff, and this was painful for her.
Why are the men like little boys letting this woman tell them when to shower.
DeleteMy mother pulled that garage even trying to tell us what time to eat or we couldn't eat. Once she made dinner at 3;30 in the afternoon and we were hungry at 8:30 and she said "Oh you don't need to eat again". I and husband got up and walked out to the car and drove to Denny's restaurant. There was nasty comments said about fat people I am sure said after we left the room. yeah I think of all the crap we took and over petty crap too. I'm not sure narcs have a conscience to feel ashamed of themselves over later kind treatment.
I was wondering that too. I don't tell anyone when to take a shower, and I think that DH was feeling uncomfortable with it when he said, later. That night she was doing laundry, and I don't know why she had to do laundry, why was it so important to do the laundry? Just so she could boss them around. If it were me I would have let the laundry go for the time being, how important is the friggin laundry? That was sick. Thank you for mentioning it. I see your mother doing that too. You have house guests and I guess this is a great opportunity to boss everyone around.
DeleteWhat kind of hostess puts laundry above the basic hygiene needs of her guests? I am sure she is the type to bitch about BO or something once she denied someone a shower too for a few days. I think she may even had made up the laundry excuse and just wanted to play power games. Tell your DH not to ask next time either just DO. My mother played those games endlessly. We were even told what time to wake up, well into adult hood. We were poor but we stopped spending nights on purpose even early on if the visit lasted more then 1 day, and would go to Motel 6, we just couldn't put up with all the crap. I had too many health needs too--I have to shower everyday or get sick and have skin problems to even deal with the nonsense of narcs.
DeleteThese fellas were building a garage, and stink is part of it. She was working at her job, and should have left the laundry, everything when 5 people were over, I mean seriously? Her house was very clean, with minimal ornaments and no books, nothing of real human warmth. I'll admit, I do have a friend that does have money, but her home is warm and welcoming, and clean. I think it is possible. But this place was cold in the feelings area of my body. But she kept away from me, she always has. He is a control freak who even emails DH for him to help build a garage. I think that should have been left up to the brother. But I'll be seeing those emails from her from now on, and I'll tell her how I feel about them. It will be safe over an email. DH seems to be complacent about the whole thing even with me, I am taking this one over. I'm sick of getting hurt over this, and he is not protecting me.
DeleteIt creeps me out how narcs are such neat freaks....yeah they were sweaty and hot so why quibble over showers. Her cold surroundings tell you what she is like too. I wonder why your DH is not protecting you too. Is he more afraid of offending the brother then you? That's still wrong. Is the brother a total milquetoast?
DeleteI saw her standing over her hubby one day, saying, "Are you getting lippy with me? Don't you even try it." She seemed to go on about that over and over, and he was staring out blankly somewhere else. I remember that from way back a few years ago when I first met them. His brother is a very nice guy, he's short, very short, maybe he feels like less of a man, and with this thing, he definitely feels like less than. Neat freaks are overwhelming to be around, and they don't live in comfort, they are always cleaning.
DeleteI think I have a few clues as to why DH is not protecting me. But now, he is acting strange with me, I could probably do anything I want to now, and he would not say anything to me. He's afraid of me now. I think he feels stuck, and I feel a little sorry for him.
Our biggest problem and most chronic is we keep trying to transpose normal thought onto the behavior of insane freaks. And the peg will never hit the hole. It like when people tell you we will just have to agree to disagree. Will we have to quit expecting them to ever get close to what we consider normal behavior. The close you get the wider the berth they give sanity. You just can't get there from here.
ReplyDeleteIts a hard knocks life for us. I'm sooo tired of playing this game. Even if I called her a disgusting whore to her face, not that I did, but just imagine if I did, she would have the choice to accept that behaviour from me and feed it or walk away. But no, she chooses to have a freakfest over the simplest thing. To me that spells crazy. Then there are people who choose to feed it and accept it, but I choose to walk away from it.
DeleteYou're dodging the issue Joan.Your husband's loyalty belongs to you. Until you demand it, you're unlikely to get it.
ReplyDeleteTry some marriage counseling or tell him to grow a pair!
He keeps dodging the issue too. Last night he told me that I can't keep my mouth shut, that I just had to say something, and that it was me who started it. Then the next second he said that he doesn't want to look bad. Oh, and he also explained about the time she showed her boobs. He said she was drunk when she did that. He says everyone does crazy things like that when they are drunk. I said, noooo.
DeleteI think all this is some kind of confirmation of the fact that she is crazy, and he is trying to tell me to walk on egg shells. So, my biggest question to him was that, how come she never looks bad? We even went to his parents last night, and when they asked how the visit went up there, I was silent for the longest time, it was like I was in another world. Then I said something about my shoulder being sore, I mean I was just so, oh, and then they changed the subject, and its like everyone knows. Also, DH said that on his holiday, that he'll just go camping with them alone and I can stay home.
Everything is effed up here. I told him that he will not be allowed to go there alone anymore, and that I will not be walking on eggshells, and the next time she does that to me, I'll be shoving her head in the toilet. Last words spoken, and he knows I mean it. I know its hard on him, but he does see the truth. Shall see what happens next.
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DeleteI agree tell him to grow a pair.
DeleteWhen I did the cuss-out a thon with my brother, I called him a wimp and a coward direct. I told him to piss or get off the pot and he probably would stay a "chicken sh*t" for mommy for the rest of his life. Okay for a Christian I can out cuss the best of them at times, that's not good but lately I don't feel sorry for the implicit message I gave him. If my husband took the side of a narc, the entire neighborhood probably would be hearing about it. I would say direct to your husband, your loyalty is owed to ME not her. Ask him why he is so entranced with walking on eggshells and kissing this woman's butt? That's what I don't get about narcs how everyone is so ready to kiss their butts. With husband, next time he screws you over and chooses her, leave and drive away in the car. Let him find his own way home.
I did tell him that. He told me there is no point to creating trouble. Creating trouble? ok. It is the high price of peace at any cost, and that is what it comes down to for him. War did break out over here. I've laid down the law. I'm afraid though that he'll try sneaking over there behind my back. But that's just my fear of it happening. I'm also sleeping in the spare room. I brought it up again today, and he said nothing. He better show me those emails, if I find out he's hiding them, there will be another war.
DeleteBut another thing, is that loyalty has to come from the heart, not sure if its something we can just demand. I say I want it, respond to the lack of it, and really, not sure what else is in my control. Like he should have wanted to leave that night. That looks bad on him, and he doesn't realize it. Narc butt kissing must look too damn good, it outvalues integrity.
Tell him she's the one creating trouble, you just wanted to be left alone and to take a shower and don't want her nit picking you all to death. I hope he doesn't sneak back there behind your back. One thing I've learned about loyalty, things get worse if you don't make a stand for it, then it's just betrayal after betrayal. I agree he should have wanted to leave or should have told her to shut her trap. I agree so many want to kiss narc butt over integrity. I am curious when you two are alone and you complain about this woman, what does he say? All defenses of her? Does he agree she is nasty? Just curious. If he think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread that's a problem. Yeah you can only respond to the lack of loyalty. I'd drive away next time, and leave him there. Leave a note "Choose your wife, I am supposed to come first to you". Maybe he will finally get it. Tell him too you don't want to submit to a nasty narc to "keep peace".
DeleteI did tell him that, and he just doesn't say anything. I worry about him going behind my back and going there this summer. But then he will definitely get caught. He doesn't hold her to any standards. And last summer when I told him she was a whore he didn't say anything. I can say whatever I want about her, but I can't tell him that she is wanting him for a bootycall, that one he gets mad at. Says that he respects his brother. I'm sure he does not think she is the greatest thing, he just told me that she was the one that showed her boobs, it wasn't his fault, that was her issue, she did it not him, blah blah. I don't know if he believes she is nasty, but lets me rant. So it definitely is confusing. I think he thinks she is crazy, but that his brother's business, lets not mess in it.
DeleteAnd I do agree with you about loyalty. I'm glad you guys brought it up. It totally escaped me what he had done, or rather not done, must be from too much abuse, I was too thickskinned from it. Its not good to not live in vulnerability, it is necessary. So I did communicate that one with him. I did tell him what I wanted and needed from him that night, and he's dead silent. Men do that to try to escape the feelings, so until he's done escaping there is no reaching him I guess.
I think you did great, standing up for yourself and calling SIL on her bullshit. She loves having all these scared men doing whatever she tells them to do. And then when you called her out on her ignoring your existence, then of course she went batshit. I think she really did look bad to all the men. Tht's why everyone ran for the hills, they were terrified of her freak fit - they are too chicken to stand up to her. And when the men came in later and were talking to you about your quilt or being friendly, I think that was their way of trying to show sympathy for what you went through - and they were even afraid to do that. The brothers might even look up to you since you do what they can't do. You're standing up to her and that's why she did her freak show. You did the right thing. You stood up for yourself. Feel proud about that. And what she did was crazy.
ReplyDeleteYou've done the hard thing already which is stand up to her and you also stood up to your husband saying he can't go camping without you. Now hold your ground. You are in the right. Your "yoohoo" was not rude at all. Sometimes people feel left out and you did and you very gently made that clear. A nice person would apologize because they would feel sorry that they'd made you feel left out. Your husband is scared and he's blinded by his fear. The whole boobs thing is about her trying to own all the men. She's very threatened by you. And your husband is too afraid to cause trouble. He hates trouble more than he likes the truth. You're on the right path, don't give up.
Thank you Anonymous. I do understand fear. It is very hard to go through. I know he is very afraid, and on autopilot. He would have to come off automatic to realize what is happening here. I did have a very hard time seeing him getting bossed around over the shower, he is treated like the man of the house here, I was apalled, and I could have said something about it at that moment. I feel like I own him, all of him, and she was breaching that boundary. I would never have intercepted in another woman's husband, the idea of that is disgusting. It denounces the respect he need's for his own sanity. It was pure torture. Thank you for saying I did the best that I could, and you know, these things happen without me getting to rehearse. That's the hard part, then you sit there and say oh no, coulda done better. But its ok though, I will continue to do what I'm doing, and no way is he going over there again alone, even if its just to dig a hole. Sometimes women have to step in and take the reins when the man is not doing what he needs to. To protect the family, and that is what I am doing.
DeleteSounds too much like my mother ....it's tantamount to my mothers favorite past time of answering her door in see through underwear. She got to watch couples fight and she got to see how far the men would take it and not ruin their marriage which was her measure of desirability. Most of us were just trying to keep our lunch down and she couldn't distinguish between Nausea and Desire.
ReplyDeleteWell, I get the impression that SIL, is a control freak. And to show your boobs because your drunk, ESPECIALLY TO A BROTHER IN LAW, is gross. I mean have some decency and show them to a perfect stranger. lol. But she is a control freak, everytime she walked into the house, she took control of everyone, even I have boundaries and I don't like hubby treated like a little boy, I want him to make his own decision when to have a shower.
DeleteQ, To me, SIL is hell-bent on destroying Joan's marriage just for the hell of it, like your mother. If she wrecks her own marriage along the way, bonus, more fun for her watching others go down in flames.
ReplyDeleteThe part about her showing her boobs because she was drunk is BS. Booze removes inhibitions and reveals a person's real character. She always wanted to hurt Joan by flashing her boobs and booze gave her the courage to do it.
Still think Joan should stop making excuses for her husband making excuses for SIL. He needs to make Joan's happiness his priority...that's what healthy spousal relationships look like. Come hell or high water you have each other's backs. The end.
Yes, MF she is hell bent for sure. I agree about what booze does. But she proceeds to try to hurt me, and hubby and I did talk a long time about it. I made some ground rules. He won't be going there again without me, I will need to see the emails she sends him, and I want him to be willing to let me look at them, and let me be free to respond to them. He will shut his mouth about the "hold my hand to take a shower". I do want his loyalty, and I told him that I needed to leave that same night of the freakfest, and since he has backed off on protecting me from this predator, I will have to take the reins and do it myself. I do want his loyalty. But he says he is being loyal, as long as I learn to walk on eggshells, I'll be fine, that's his advice. Sometimes women have to take over, even as traditional as I am, I have got to be willing to stand up and protect the family when he is unwilling or unable to, for whatever reasons. He said ok. So, I think anonymous is right, he is too afraid, and needs me to take this one over. I looked in his eyes, and I could see a little "help me". But I need to protect myself from this predator first. Not just go along with the man says, and I continue to demand loyalty from him, and I'll accept nothing less.
DeleteI agree, I think she wants to destroy their relationship. Maybe its Boobs the first time and throwing herself naked on the bed the next. I agree stand up for yourself, if he won't do it. Someone willing to show boobs to a BIL, is one huge sicko, drunk is no excuse, she probably is a whore that would sleep with someone's husband to just get a high off of it. Yeah you need to nip this one in the bud. The brother sounds like one weak character too, allowing her to strip in front of other men and almost in an incestuous way.
DeleteAs Q would probably say, he goes for the sloppy seconds. I agree with MF, that booze only lowers your inhibitions to make you only do things that you would really do. I heard a psychologist say once that we can live drunk by accessing a part of our brain for it, but it still comes down to what standards we have in the first place.
DeleteBut she is very controlling, and it seems like she wants to corall everyone. And that fit she threw was more for the guys benefit, to keep everyone in line. The first time I ever saw her, that day we got to be alone, she was dead inside. There was no connection with her. I think that was my first clue.
Does anyone have any pictures of her boobs? You wanna buy some?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to ask hubby for you. Just kidding. ha ha.
DeleteI love a narcs duplicity. Me and my sister routinely bring up the fact that if anyone did to her one tenth of what she did to other peoples relationships she would have your head mounted on a stick
ReplyDeleteOh no kidding. That's always the way. They have tender widdle feewlings. Awww.
DeleteYou have to decide if this woman is a sociopath or not if she is she'll stop at nothing and you have to decide if you are all in or all out.
ReplyDeleteHere's a clip of some people exercising their right to assemble peacefully and get some house work done on a Saturday morning. You can clearly see the mood turn sour at the 2:10 mark when my mother shows up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVjgY427qW8
My biggest issue was that she was in the family for 20 years, and me just 5. She looks more stable than I do, and last night I was afraid of that. And I don't know how to compete with that. But I was afraid of his disloyalty, didn't want to believe that he was being disloyal to me, that is a hard one to take. I think so little of her now, and she is not on my radar at all, really. The freak fit should have proved something, and it didn't, because I'm the one with a tumultuous life, not she. I got hurt, and like it said in the video you posted, you don't worry about it, you just get out and leave, to be safe. But she is considered safe to them, not me, I'm not considered safe.
DeleteFor me to demand loyalty from him, is this huge leap. I took the leap, and now I do stand on it, but fear blocks me now and again. Don't we look bad? I know some of us ACONs lead relatively stable lives, but some of us didn't. I love Anna V. for she was divorced twice before she was 30, love her. And she is so strong and so stable, love her. When I feel badly about myself, I go bury my head in her blog, those are my best times.
She is some kind of automaton. She works, cleans all the time, bosses everyone around, as a houseguest, you are fair game, and she is in charge of you, get over yourself. There home is very clean, with a random statue here and there, very nothing of personality. I can't talk to her, her eyes are blank. She is empty. Void of personality. Some narcs are better than that, this dead thing, my mother would slap her in the head and tell her to smarten up, you are supposed to hid this narc thing, not give it away.
DeleteWow sounds like my mother in personality. I'd do silent treatment if you can help it while there. Stay in other room, make a sandwich, don't put effort in "being nice" or "making conversation". Go shopping while they work if there is anywhere to go alone in the car. She sounds like an empty robot, so many of those workaholic narcs are, appearances and cleaning being everything. Some narcs play pretend some don't bother. My sister is a step up from my mother, in that she doesn't do any fake charm.
DeleteDon't worry about how they appear. With narcs they already think bad of us. I used to have imaginations thinking my family didn't think as bad as me as I suspected but going NC it was proven. So it's a waste of time. Don't let it censor you in other words because it won't make a difference. I don't get your husband. What if you showed him some of these conversations, would he flip out? LOL You could copy and paste and change a few words so he can't find your blog. Tell him you are appearing as push-over and a man that won't stand up for his woman.
DeleteI know, they are creepy. For the time being, I'm just going to see what is going to happen here now, and see where it goes, or how he does with me needing him to be loyal. I know that I won't sit back at home like I did last summer. I will act and say what I want, not say anything, whatever. And I know its hard to not care what people think, but its true, we need to. He knows I am writing about this, he doesn't read the blog, He knows I have family issues, he gets narcissism, and he knows that is why I have a blog. I don't think he minds me writing about this, cause I don't have much friends, really just you guys, and a few acquaintances here in the outside world. I have never really seen him flip out ever, very quiet person, seems laid back, keeps busy.
DeleteI'm going to tell him that he appears as a push-over, and see how that one goes. Thanks Peeps.
BTW my mother is the chick with her tongue rammed down the guys throat on the hood of his car.
ReplyDeleteThere probably are people that are human that are loose like that when they are drinking, but when they sober up they are so embarrassed if they did it publicly. This one is interested in his shower.
DeleteMy husband was being hit on by his friend's almost ex. They worked together and damn near everyday he'd come home and tell me one of her sob stories about how badly his friend was treating her. She finally got her own place and invited hubby over to see it. When he told me he intended to go over there after work one day, I said, "Let me know when, so I can book a locksmith." Hubby says, "A locksmith?" and I say "Yeah, but don't worry your clothes will be on the porch in a garbage bag." Only took him a few seconds to apologize and he was home right on time from then on.
ReplyDeleteBack when we were engaged, he actually had a drunk co-worker of mine flash her boobs and he just continued dancing with her. I walked out to the car and left him there, at a house in the middle of the country. The host let him sleep over and the next day at work I found out another co-worker had driven the semi-conscious woman home. I confronted her ay work and handed her my future husband's phone # saying, "Here he's all yours." She never did call him.
Stop taking your husband's BS. Next time he wants to go see SIL either alone or with you, tell him to go ahead without you so you can be home when the locksmith arrives. Quick easy way to find out where his loyalties lie.
Then I would be afraid that would be the end of us. I don't even know where his loyalties lie right now, he is not telling me. He is dead silent. I don't know if that would be some kind of test for him, maybe he is wanting me to leave. I have so much to figure out here. A woman of low inhibitions like that, and his brother's wife, and he sees everything is ok. Not sure if I want that either. Right now he is on his work run and we don't talk much during this time anyway. By monday he'll be free and clear, and I want to know how he feels about this, about me, the whole thing. Kinda didn't have the chance to talk before, I was too much in shock over his lack of loyalty to me. I was not in shock over the freak fit, just how things are with him. When he said that he would go there alone, and not bring me, he was angry when he said that. So I'm not sure what to do now. He says lots of stupid things when he's angry, but he tiptoes when it comes to SIL, that's for sure. I don't like a narc butt kisser, it makes me sick actually.
DeleteThat was great that your husband smartened up over all that, you threatening to lock him out. I would never stay here alone, we are out in the bush, and I could not do this on my own. So, I, any threat has to be willing to be followed through, and I'll be honest, that scares me. You must be one tough lady MF.
I will probably do that. All this silence is driving me crazy. I could take her boobs and shove them down her throat, or shove her head in the toilet, I can do anything, and in the end, its not about her at all. She means so little so insignificant, it doesn't even matter, really. I don't want to be with a butt kisser, and won't be with one. I've drawn the line, she will need to be stood up to BY HIM, or that's it. The only reason I'm with him is because he stood up to my mother, and I don't know what happened to him in this case.
DeleteA woman dared to flirt with my husband in front of me 10 years ago and I told him if she did it again I'd be ready to punch her out. He was polite and didn't do anything wrong but I saw her as a shark on the prowl. I think I frightened her away with some very glaring looks, in this case letting her know don't cross those boundaries.
DeleteThis isn't an affair but this woman is trying to get in between you and your husband and is already smearing you to him. What I don't get is why he is honoring her opinions above yours. Why does he tiptoe for her but not respect your feelings? I saw enough of these dynamics in my family with everyone kissing my mother's butt but not giving one fart over how I felt about anything. You deserve to be treated far better then this. Loyalty is something that is not a luxury from a spouse but a necessity.
When I and husband fought over his sister, I did lay it out one day, "me or her". I was refusing for us to move in with her. She is a control freak and has no emotions. I knew living with her would put our marriage and my health under extreme pressure. She once tried to break us up during one of his first job lay-offs, telling him he could move in but not bring me. She was trying to set things up even during this time. She rented a two story apartment with a steep staircase to all the bedrooms [I can't do stairs} so it was obvious what she was doing and I remember we were sitting in this art museum. I am NC with his sister and avoid her. I don't trust her. She smears me to him and tells him I am too emotional. Its a great thing she lives so far away and I want to keep it that way.
He didn't talk to her for three months when she tried the gambit of "leave her there" but I knew then to stay as far away as possible. She is one of these narcs too with no emotions that seems "reasonable" to everyone. Those cold people scare me.
DeleteTry being told that you need someone to hold your hand to take a shower, and hubby repeated that one to me. I told him to never say that to me again, and he didn't, now there is all this silence. I didn't listen to her freakfest, this is something I grew up around, one narc could turn the whole house upside down, and I've even heard 2 narcs go at eachother, I'm rather immune, but the fellas running away, I was shocked at.
DeleteSad to hear that of your SIL. That was very overt of her, to tell him to leave you there, my gosh, I believe in being emotional, don't ever squish down parts of you, it is you, the whole you. The you that God made.
His loyalties are his for him to assign as he pleases. Other than make it clear to him he is in uncharted territory you can't MAKE him do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteMy mother was the devil in skin, this little freak, well, I could take her on. And she had all these guys running for the hills. I mean they were SCARED. 3 men freakin running. I would like to take her on. God help me, I would love to. Not for what she had done here, but for the fact that she is a narc. All my life, all the abuse I've taken as a target, all on her. My life destroyed, all on her. Because she is a narc. No other reason. That is why I was waiting alone in her house that day. I was waiting for her to come in alone. God help me.
DeleteBut yeah, it is on him. He has to be the one to decide. He took on my mother and I don't know what his problem is. I know he is afraid. Fear is overtaken with anger though, and he's not angry. Or he might be, I don't know. There might be something going on with him I don't know. We know he is not saving his brother. Don't know if he knows that, mother had no ties to him. Maybe he thinks narcs can be saved with love. Maybe he found LuckyOtters site, and he's reading it, don't know.
He stood up to your mother but not to her? I am sorry to hear that. I hope he isn't reading LuckyOtter's website and taking the advice. I don't get how these cruel women get so much power over men. The narcs probably put out faster I guess, but this is his brother's wife.
DeleteThat was a joke about him reading Lucky's site, but maybe he thinks these critters can be helped with love. I think they use control and fear. That freak fest was probably more for the guys sake than mine, to keep everyone in line. and quite truthfully, if she was a normal person, would these men be that scared? I remember a bible scripture about looking at their fruits, her fruit is fear. I don't think I can possibly solicit fear from anyone. I might be able to throw a fit, but they would be laughing at me, or be pissed at me, but never be afraid of me.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9Cu6GYqxo
ReplyDeleteCool song, I started it, but yeah. I take part in this huge relationship site. In it we realize that we are love, and we don't go out looking for love, we draw it in. And we don't have to try. It gets a little complicated, but if I respond to his lack of whatever, then he gets the idea of how I feel. This is me giving. You see giving is not what we think it is, sometimes its responding, showing him how we feel, and from there it will make him a better person, someone with some values. Then he takes that elsewhere in his life, at his job whatever, making him better. This is influence in action. I know I sounded off tonight. But I don't know what is going on in his head, he is too busy focusing on work, and I don't blame him, he needs to, its challenging. I need to give some understanding, for now, and see if he blows it later.
Delete