Here's what happened. It is embarrassing and I should have known better. I was at church and a couple I know there is moving far away, and I probably will never see them again. He is a very knowledgeable a retired high school teacher, very formal, kinda dry, but very delightful. And as solid as the day is long. She, on the other hand is vibrant, sweet, radiant and has this way that I admire, and find she has been a great influence on me. Not that I talk to them much. We talk and leave and that is all there is to it. They are moving away and I am upset, and I don't know when they will be gone from my life forever.
Well, I asked them how the sale of their house is going, how the packing is going etc. questions like that. I started to get this look from her that I knew I was intruding and I just shouldn't be asking these questions. Then I suddenly said, "Oh, I was just wondering when you are moving, so I know how long you'll be here. I'll miss you guys so much." She smiled and said maybe a little over a month.
See what I'm getting at here? Stupid, stupid of me. I just wanted to know how much longer they were going to be around, and instead of asking that simple little question, I asked a bunch of stupid questions instead. One quick question was all I needed to ask, and instead I asked about things I really didn't care about and crossed their boundaries. Why would I want to know how the sale of their house is going? Seriously? And I didn't know them well enough to be asking that question.
Oh boy. Am I ever embarrassed. Have you ever wished for a time machine that would go back for just a few minutes? I did that day and I wish that all the time. I make so many mistakes in social skills. It's because of my nerves.
I got a powerful lesson though. I discovered I made the mistake. In the past, I would make these mistakes never knowing what I did wrong. Why did I offend someone? I don't know, I just thought I was one hell of an offensive, evil person. It kept me from going out in public, and isolated me some more.
They are a very nice couple, and wouldn't ever hurt me. There are times in my life when I have been hurt. When I was in high school, I was trying to get along with the others by participating in some joking, I got punched in the face by a boy. I can't explain how that happened, I wasn't aware at the time, but if I were to experience it again, I would know. So many painful moments.
And to this day, it screws me over. I can't work in my field of science, I get pushed out, because of my extreme anxiety. I don't even like to call it anxiety anymore, I need to address that in another post of hyper vigilance, that I am writing simultaneously to this one. Tough stuff. But it is important to open this thing up. I know my past and how and why this is happened. I can't get my needs met, and I get lost in the world. Even in my relationship, his ex has been chasing him with emails and phonecalls even after all these years. He ignores that and I can't help but get this feeling that she is doing this to target me. I can't say for sure that she is an MN, but so far what I can see, she is. But I have my relationship site. So this shouldn't be a problem. Just that I don't do well with aggressive people, my hyper vigilance is up, so this is a process.
I'll give you another example of how I've grown. We have an MN in our bible study group. She only comes in the winter. I've only met her because I didn't join up till this winter. This part is a little strange, but she seems to keep everyone on edge. I can now see that. She sits beside me all the time. I try to sit somewhere else and she comes along and sits beside me. She says she likes me. Of course she does, of course. Narcs love me. Then she gets all this praise from everyone. Everyone calls her nice. Nice? Are they lying? No, they are doing this as some kind of mind meld. I don't know if I can explain that. When I had a big cyst on my cheek, that turned out to be a cancer, everyone was sympathetic. She mentions a bowl cancer, everyone is quiet, seemingly unable to even communicate. And even, I've noticed everyone seems to be avoiding any direct talk with her, and avoid eye contact if they have to answer back to her. She always initiates any conversations. They tell her her doctor is doing his best. The room goes quiet. She continues talking. Soon someone said, "Ok,". I can hear movement, body language changing, it looks like they try to turn away from her. They acknowledged it then the subject got changed. A big sigh of relief. And its like I can see everyone is smiling over at the one who changed the topic. Everyone seems to avoid her, then they call her this nice sweet lady. :/
She gets downright nasty at times. She is practically putting others down during the bible study because, "I knows more about the bible than you or you or you." She sits next to me and it feels like sitting next to a rattlesnake. I hear these weird clicking sound. Do all narcs do that? I know she is in her 70's, probably normally raspy, but its different somehow. I can't explain it. Just a lifetime of hyper vigilance I guess. I wish someday to peel out of these nerves and actually explain it. If I have a question, I usually direct it over to the men, I'm a little old fashioned that way. She answers, and I try to avoid eye contact. No, my own husband doesn't come to the bible study.
It has been taught by our wonderful Q1605, that anyone can throw you under the bus, narc or not. And I get that now. All these people in the room will toss me under the bus if need be to save this frail old woman. If need be. But I know they don't like her. This is strange. It's like a science that needs to be explored. I can see this now for the first time in my life. I remember as a child thinking I would have supporters, but it turned out I had none, and I would be wondering why. No on seems to care for a narc, but they jump to their side regardless. Even in high school, the bullies would triumph with "love and adoration" of others.
And I can now see in my bible study, how this "sweet little old lady", could have an army of people after me, even if they don't seem to like her. I see that now.
There is one narcissistic trait that I desperately need right now for survival. I can't survive without the ability to make mistakes and still praise myself. If things blow up in my face, I still need to tell myself I did a wonderful job. We don't really praise someone for screwing up, but oh well, I need that. I am not going to survive without it. No way. The abuse has ingrained in me too well. One screw up and I would pay through the nose when I was growing up. So I need this all to be good. When you are a hollowed out husk, the tendency is to retreat back into yourself, to hide. To stay safe, to stay alive.
I know it is painful sometimes to make mistakes. It can feel downright deadly. I know that. It is ok to feel that way, and if you are going to feel it, feel it deeply. Feel it down into your bones, because it is only then that the feeling can go away.
As for trying? I never try. I just do. And if it blows up in my face, I will accept it as a real life lesson. I will believe I did a wonderful job. I would have learned something. Mistakes are a teaching lesson, for mistakes might not be a mistake at all but a needed step in the process.
But what about taking responsibility for my bad behaviour or bad decisions? That thought is what makes me think its narcissistic to not own up to something. That's where I would get screwed up. My last ex-husband was a firm believer in taking personal responsibility. I can't remember a time when he did even do that himself. Unless of course, you can call the fact he wasn't working as a way of being responsible. He said it wasn't fair to an employer to have him on board because he was "sick". He thought he was being responsible by sleeping, eating, and masturbating all day on pornography sites. And I believed him. At the time, I know I didn't have emotional resources either, because my life was always in a panic state. So I do understand somewhat, but in learning, I've grasped the fact that he wasn't the type of guy to be all that. He never would have been my protector. He should have been rooted out int the dating process. That's a separate story. But important to social skills regardless.
I don't ever not take responsibility. I was always trying so hard. In fact, I came on board the ACON community because of the internal resources I had cultivated for a recovery that I didn't know what I was recovering from. My mind could not realize I had a bad parasite that screwed me over from my formative years. I still saw mother as a good person, I couldn't entertain anything else. I had to work hard to get here. I had to earn my awakening. I had to even earn my current relationship, because I went into it as a way of escaping a horrible narcissistic family. We didn't develop from a point of passion. That had to come later.
Every single thing has been work. Hard work.
That is so painful. I can never get over it. during the most severe abuse, my child mind had to retreat, to survive to stay alive. I needed to be hollow to live. I need God, this painful sore spot hits me to the core. I find myself saying over and over again, "Oh God, Oh God," screaming out to him over what has happened. Not only that but for Him for safety. It kind of spins around that my childhood was abusive, and I need God for me to even accept that. I get so angry. I'm not liking the anger. I need Him for direction, for leadership and on my own I feel I need to try to fix all this stuff that has went wrong.
He is now leading me to explore and I'm not trying to fix things. Things can fix themselves, I am just to practice being alive, that is all. I mean really being alive, not a carved out husk. So that is what I'm doing.
Everything at this point is a learning curve. I need people around me that can understand that and allow me a place to be where I'm at in my mind. It's not always going to be pretty. When I express myself these days, it is not like a normal person. It looks crazy, because I have to swing the pendulum hard and it goes way over. But its ok. I've only existed to be fed off of by a giant parasite. I struggle with social skills. There will be more hollowed out husks coming onboard. This is a hard endeavour. If you have awakened to the truth about your narcissistic family, you can congratulate yourself, because I heard that most don't. I can't imagine how horrible that is, but it happens. Most of my life was spent in pure horror. Beaten down, smacked around, left to die even. I can't say it enough. It was your family that set you up in life to surely die. But you didn't die, you stayed alive.
Its weird it is social skills that the non-parents rooted out of us, but this comes to me as no surprise.
Social skills are an absolute survival trait. Our ancestors would have died without it. They depended on eachother for survival. The man protected his family, and I can tell you none of our ancestor ladies could have lived without a good protector and one who would not only provide but be willing to provide, for her and her children would have died for sure. He would also need to work well with the other men in a tribe. The women too. I'm sure I had at least some good ancestors, otherwise I could not be here right now. We require it too, but the problem is that we live in little boxes, drive to work in little boxes, then work in little boxes etc. Stab eachother in the back. Life has changed.
With my studies, I have come to believe that narcissists are slated for extinction. If we just let them be they will be gone. But oh no, we give them the highest towers in society, feed them supply because we're scared, then, take special care to take care of the bullies, and oh my gosh, we breed with them. Then they proliferate.
I'll tell you a secret. I wrote a little phrase just before my awakening. Here it is - I really like people. I'm curious about them and I forget about myself and get interested in them. A conversation is fun, a chance to learn about somebody. I made that one up all by myself. I wanted that. Or at least I felt this would be good.
So what shall I say about social skills? They are for survival plain and simple. During my studies on relationships I have discovered this. But being raised by a narcissist, I had none. Now I'm growing some. I can use logic for it, but place me in a room with a bunch of people and I am a mess. I need my comfort and it doesn't include people. I wish it did but I must be realistic. I wonder about people who have that natural want to be around others. What does that even feel like.
Narcs seem to like people? They don't. They are parasites, just unable to exist alone.
Well anyway I have done a tad of research on social skills and I found myself overwhelmed by my panic. It doesn't fit me, its hard. It's too painful. Sometimes things reach a point where it's too damn hard to even get started. So much of it relies on positive thinking, and I just can't. I had to turn off the computer and walk away.
Well anyway, just to let you know, I have some things I have been using to socialize and are very calming and relaxing. And easy peasy. For me, I felt no triggering reactions from this. When you have PTSD anything can trigger an attack, anything. From my own experience, I feel I can say that. So in my opinion, anyone can feel safe and these feel like a nice long bubblebath and hot chocolate.
When I get panicky it is not pretty. Hypervigillance turns me into someone else. It is so scary. That is why I think I can tell you that this actually feels good. Going from my perspective.
It's comfy to look at this from the failing side. I have all these plaguey thoughts about failure, so I try to see what would happen when I don't get everything exactly right. As soon as I can see the failing side to things, I'm ok. It is only easier for me, and I think it will be easy for anyone always on the edge of painful panic. So go ahead, make mistakes, make lots of mistakes. Let it blow up in your face if need be. And congratulate yourself when it does. I think I have enough experience from my own ACON life to say these are comfy, comfy, comfy.
When I'm meeting someone, I should be concerned about my own image, and not worry about the person I'm talking to. I will worry about saying or doing the right thing. Or I can actually value the person I'm with, even though I might have my shirt on backwards.
I will absolutely be concerned only with being in sync with someone. When I was in counselling, the therapist told me that in social interactions there is an exchange between the two, and I am to remain always trying to figure out what that is. Even if that takes my attention away. Or I will realize that the very nature of connecting with humans is that it is not perfect. There will be times I will say and do the wrong things, and that is great.
I will need to look our sound smart. I won't worry about being fully present with someone, I won't care about that, I must sound cool. Or I can just be fully present with someone. If a friend needs to talk, I'll just put on the tea, and stay in the moment with them. Because here is the cool thing that is actually scientific. If you are fully present with someone you'll be able to respond, connect, and be in tune with what is needed in that situation, rather than doing what makes you look good or sound smart.
The best example of being present is when a friend comes over and she is hurt over her marriage breaking up. Not present means that you'll tell her to get over it, and take her to the bar to meet some new men. Ever have a friend do that to you? Ugh. Or you can put on the kettle and settle into the hurt and pain and anguish she is feeling. This might take hours. It's ok, you are getting your needs met too. This is social interaction. This is presence. I've seen this in movies, and the women were eating ice cream out of cartons. Isn't that great? But be careful, food might mask pain we should really be feeling.
I know these are really just one on one social situations. I am currently trying to extrapolate for actual group social situations. This one is hard. I can only get along in groups if I feel no aggression and the group is kind and inviting. Otherwise I'm screwed over. I remember work situations, where I could have voiced myself and got my needs met, but I can't do that. Even if it is in my best interests to do so, I'm afraid. That will take more growth and I hope to get there.
But I know last week I was with a group of women in my quilting class and I finally got things together in my head. I said to myself that even if my shirt is on backwards, I will use the one on one social skills for what I'll do in groups. I'll be present and I may have made a fool of myself, but I'm not focusing on that any longer.
And yes, there is an MN in my bible study group, and I choose to not socially interact with her. No one else seems to, and I know from my mother, that even if she says something that is good, not to take for granted that she is a good person. Otherwise I'm fine in that group, and I work on getting my needs met regardless of anything. (even if I have a booger hanging out of my nose, which is not going to happen, that is just the MN mother that raised me, that loved to tease me about being stupid, whatever, so it has no basis in reality.) That was narc supply, plain and simple.
As far as me asking intrusive questions of that couple who are moving? Well, when we are second guessing ourselves and our actions, and not being fully present that will happen. What do we know what to ask? Just go by your gut, your authentic and true self. I just wanted to know how long I'll have them in my life because I'll miss them. There is nothing wrong with that, that is lovely. It is sentimentality, but that is not what would help me while growing up in the vortex of a narc. I might treat all people like narcs if I don't become authentic. Just do it whatever. If you feel like you would like a raise at work, just ask for it. I'm sure your boss won't hate you for it. Unless he is a narc, he might drive you into the ground. But if he is hateful, its not your fault its because he is a narc, and that is what narcs do. Don't blame yourself. Your boss might give you some feedback on your work. See that as a positive thing, it will help you grow. But take his advice with a grain of salt, this is just a person with an opinion, but he has the experience, he can help. See yourself for who you truly are, you are a good person. It's this feeling of being vulnerable we hate. I know as ACON's this feels deadly. See this as a reality of how you were raised.
I don't think I've covered the reality of what we feel while all this is going on. I hope to get to that in my next post of hyper vigilance. Maybe I should publish that one first, but for some reason this was easier for me. I didn't want to put them together because I wanted to keep this one sweet and easy, but I will talk about the real feeling that death is imminent really soon.
I understand you feeling bad about people moving away. A couple that runs my self help group was leaving, and I have those emotions now. I wasn't hanging out with them everyday but saw them on a consistent basis, so I have felt those losses too and the endless church members I was forced to move away from or who moved away from me. I know with my nerves too I have asked the million of questions. In my Aspie mind part of me is thinking get the conversation in before they vanish. :(
ReplyDeleteI don't think what you did was some horrible thing. I hope they weren't too bad about it to you.
I have a life long problem with anxiety and one odd thing about anxiety is it can bring anger out in others. I am not even sure if it is a vulnerability the predators just exploit or it makes some just mad and I do not understand why. I feel lost in the world too. Sometimes in our society today it seems even having feelings and missing people is somehow "WRONG" and this worries me. Like we are not supposed to have feelings at all. Would people be shocked to find out that Aspie me constantly tells herself hide feelings you are not supposed to have any to keep NTs happy? [not all NTs but quite a few of them. :(]
I would try and avoid the narc at bible study, sorry she follows you. That is sad, she even tried to one up your skin cancer. Sounds like she is not fooling everyone like so many narcs do at the very least.
I have noticed that groups will always choose narcs. I do not know why this is. Afraid of being her next target? It's a poisonous human dynamic isn't it, the narc love by groups.
Personal responsibility is often a hammer used by narcs they never follow.
I agree about the learning curves. One thing with God what all the narcs consider mistakes He doesn't I am trying to stick to God's standards more and more.
I believe my social skills were destroyed too by the non-parents. I believe refrigerator parents do cause autism which I know is extremely controversial. With the social skills don't give yourself too hard of a time. I know I function best one on one and not in groups. In groups, they either ignore me or push me to the side. I always say the wrong things. I have some groups with kind people I can deal with but I have kind of given up on fitting into groups and only go for whatever the group is being held for hoping I will meet one on one friends which I have.
When I notice narcs in groups, I avoid them like the plague. I don't talk to them.
I am fighting this thing now where I am tired of worrying about what everyone else thinks, I think to myself. Let me say and do what I want. [you know within reason] I don't have much else to lose. I figure people will hate me that would have hated me even when I was trying to fit in.
I know I get nervous around people too. I know surrounded by the family I was I am having to learn things I should have known years and years earlier. I don't think socially things will ever be perfect for me. I am too low status and too Aspie in American society. I hope things improve for you though and the best social connections are the ones where we can be ourselves and don't have to guard and measure every word.
Thanks Peeps. She was fine once I actually got around to asking the question I wanted to ask. For me in social situations, I am very clumsy, but that is because I am not being myself. To ask them such a compassionate question, of when are they leaving because I want to know how long I get to keep you, is not something that came automatic for me. I tried to explore that feeling, but it is too deep rooted for now. When I was growing up, no compassion was the rule. Not so sure why it feels so strange now. Better to ask them how the sale is going on their house. lol I guess no feelings keep the narcs happy. I remember crying used to make mother very angry, but not only that, she would get degrading and personally hurt me. Even if I was ill. I remember one time when I was little and so sick in my tummy with the flu, mother came right over and farted right next to me. Then she walked away and said it was a stinky one. And it was. No show of feelings. I couldn't get angry, or feel hurt or upset. Just ignore it. I was so sick, and having to hold back my emotions and dealing with the stink too. She could have been a normal person who accidentally farted next to me, but that would have been a different story, a different set of dynamics at play, where my emotions could have been felt. And that would not have harmed me emotionally at all.
ReplyDeleteI do try to avoid narcs, just like that woman at my bible study. I'm learning, and I'm dealing well with my fear around her, and I get to see how everyone is around her, its interesting.
Isn't it strange how everyone will rally around a narc, I guess it is because of fear that they might be the next target. Ok, now that I'm awake and aware I will never rally around a narc. If push comes to shove, I'll expose them. But we'll see, sometimes my fear gets in the way, but I'll never rally around them.
But it is my theory, but it is best to feel every single one of those emotions now. Even embarrassment, and I seem to hate that one the most. Even if you have to hide in your room, away from spouses, whatever. No one needs to know, just let it loose. As a result, I've been more awakened and even more aware of everything that is going on around me. I understand the poverty will make it hard at times, and I don't know where God is going with that for you, but I'll keep praying.
Hi, Joan,
ReplyDeleteI have never commented on your blog before but I finally am. This is a great article and I can relate to everything in it. As an Aspie and sufferer of PTSD I have many awkward social interactions like you did with the couple who was moving away. I can't even tell you how many times I've gotten that "weird look" after I say something, and then I rack my brains trying to figure out what I said wrong. Then I wind up apologizing profusely because if I don't, they might think I'm a hateful, tactless person. I'm glad for you this couple was understanding.
You're absolutely right about the narcs and the people pleasing the rest of us do around them, because we're AFRAID of them. It reminds me of those popular girls in school, you know, the "mean girl" types, who weren't nice at all and were catty and cruel to everyone not as high on the social ladder, yet everyone vied to get on their good side and be their friends, just because of the status they provided. But if you asked people what they REALLY thought of those "popular" kids, most people would admit they didn't really like them. They weren't really popular at all, but people were scared.
I laughed about the "clicking" thing you mentioned narcs doing. I haven't actually heard them clicking, but they are creepy and do some weird s**t and look at you weird and have weird eyes. I won't go so far as to say they aren't human (some ACONS think they are not) but they are damaged and as Peep says, they have been seared. There may not be hope for them, I am just not sure. Most aren't self aware at all. My mother certainly wasn't and still isn't. I used to have nightmares about her having those solid black demon eyes as a child, and my mother knew that I knew and that I was a "truth teller" and that's why she decided she hated me. I was about 5.
Narcs actually don't have social skills because everything they do is fake and a lie. They are walking talking masks and can't truly relate to anyone or ever really listen. Everything is all about them and maintaining their mask, and woe be to you if you try to penetrate it or call them out.
--Lucky Otter
it sounds like there might be some autism going on, with some of you. There's nothing wrong with that, but I also have the same problem and I have Aspergers syndrome myself. It's not always autism, but enough of the time it can be.in which case, if it is, just learning "social skills" isn't alone going to do it.
DeleteWelcome Lucky Otter,
ReplyDeleteIt is my very real experience that they can get everyone on their side, it definitely is something to watch out for. I've learned this recently, I wish I knew this all my life. It would have saved me a lot of pain. I watch out when I'm around one, its good to have the experience under my belt and I know how to handle them now.
I've noticed them going right ballistic in front of other people all the time, by not getting their supply, Everyone gives them a wide berth, and so do I. They work hard maintaining their masks, but it seems to disappear in old age. I don't know about them changing either, I'm too new to this, it is not something I think about too much.
That clicking sound I hear is like they don't know how to place their tongues in their mouth, to say what they need to, it gets all jumbled up, I think. They know I am an easy target, or was one, and they are trying to nab me and it isn't working. It's like they are offended that they wasted their time. It's just weird.
my dad was a Narc, and as an adult, in my 60s, I finally stopped calling up my sister anymore. (She lives in another state.) Because she never called me up. And it did seem to be all about her life, even when we talked, so I finally decided if I didn't actually have to call her up, because of "family business", I was not going to talk to her at all. Not call her anymore. I don't need to spend the long distance . It is been 10 years since I actually saw her in person, and she doesn't want me to come down to her state, to see her. Her lifelong partner just died, who I also knew. So I'm kind of relieved I don't have the "job" of having to call her up, and say "how are you?"it's not that I don't miss her. I'm just completely unwilling anymore, to make all the effort.
ReplyDeleteIt is probably for the best. We don't have to be around anyone or make the effort. Just because we share a biological connection. I feel it is best to do what you want to do with your life, and if certain people make your life a blessing, not a burden, those are the people we are to spend time with.
Deleteyou do know, that if you go and hang out and socialize in some kind of "religious organization", you are going to find people like that. Lots of people who hang out in religious organizations of some type, probably have more stuff going on with them, then other social organizations you might go to. So I'm not surprised. I know other people who go to Christian churches, and they have the same problems as you do with those people. So it's actually not the easiest place in the world to socialize! You might try to find other hobbies, that don't include religion, to go and meet people and make small talk. I used to be a very religious person, and I used to hang out in those types of organization, and I stopped doing it. I realized, in later life, that it didn't really matter WHO God was, or WHAT God was, or WHY we exist. It was not really important after all. Because people probably don't follow the rules and laws of religion or ethics or morals anyhow. So it didn't make any difference. Just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThanks anonymous, but I have trouble being around people in the first place. I do have some social circles I go to, I'm quite comfortable around. I'm with a quilting guild now. So that is another one.
DeleteI want to be out in the world as little as possible, but not a total recluse. I also do realize that narcs are a fact of life, but I do NC with my mother.
God has been important in my life, but I know I don't have to go to church.
Thanks again anonymous.